hummmmmmm. you dont have to believe in morals, but many people carry a personal code of them and will use them unjustly against you….that is what I was refering too……………it is illegal for me to use my personal moral code to judge you when I am interviewing you for a job, but many times employers doing the hiring do just that………in making your decision it has to be considered
I highly doubt that you are 70 years old; regardless, age has nothing to do with maturity. By it’s very definition, self-determination cannot be denied by anyone. :rolleyes:
That isn’t even remotely true, but it’s irrelevant. You have no right to dictate what a business owner does with their business, in which they have invested their time, money, and reputation. You go on and on about standing up for your freedom of choice, and yet you want to strip business owners of their freedom of choice. It is certainly within your rights to avoid businesses that enforce a dress code or require that tattoos be covered, but it is equally within their rights to hold and enforce policies that they believe will impact their business.
Bottom line: the more tattooed you are, the more doors you’re going to close for yourself. Regardless of right/wrong, it’s just a fact.
Indeed.
Agreed. Getting inked or wearing a grass skirt to work is a choice and is no way comparable to the above. As adults, we have to accept the limitations or consequences that we impose upon ourselves when we make particular choices. Choosing to do something and then ranting about the unfairness of the world because you don’t like how things turned out simply comes across as childish and irrational.
Bottom line: the more tattooed you are, the more doors you’re going to close for yourself. Regardless of right/wrong, it’s just a fact. It’s the price we pay for who we are.
Love. Peace. Metallica.
you were banned before – what happened?
As far as doors closing I really agree no matter how “acceptable” it becomes it is still never going to be right in mainstream society for a surgeon or a commercial airline pilot to have face neck or hand tattoos…
YAAAAAWWWWWNNNNN….
D3FiANC3, I’m done discussing this issue with you. Let’s just agree to disagree and move on. The fact of the matter is that you will increasingly lose both customers and qualified employees with your self righteous attitude.
The 1950s were a long time ago, my friend. Its a new world.
D3FiANC3, I’m done discussing this issue with you. Let’s just agree to disagree and move on. The fact of the matter is that you will increasingly lose both customers and qualified employees with your self righteous attitude.
The 1950s were a long time ago, my friend. Its a new world.
*slams head into table*
Zorba man, I am more inclined to agree with you on this as a moral issue. I frankly find D3FiANC3’s line of logic somewhat faulty because the exact same arguments were used to tell black folks they couldn’t eat at the lunch counter with us whities.
Even so, you are wrong about the practical issue. Living in Cali, your world view is warped. Try living in a redneck state like southern Ohio or Kentucky. Racism, discrimination, and Bible thumping hated are the norm in places like this. And there are more places in like here in this disgustingly conservative country than your wonderfully liberal haven by far.
Denying people jobs due to ink is wrong. But it’s a fact we have to live with and only time is going to change it. That was my main point in my last post–this just is how it is, and honestly, isn’t that part of what makes ink special?
What I’m saying here is that it’s people like you who make it impossible for me to make real, useful, and powerful arguments for progressive causes. Us liberals do not have a tenth of the clout of the conservatives. They have an automatic aura of respectability–everything we say is suspect. That means when some self-righteous child uses infantile words like talibanesque, or uses the condescending tone you use, you hurt the entire movement. We have to be twice as intelligent, with a hundred times the facts, and twenty times as personable to get taken half as seriously as some tea party member carrying a “God Hates Fags” signs.
Is that right? No. But it is how it is and in order to change reality we have to first acknowledge it. Businesses can be hurt by tattooed employees. We can only change that by recognizing it first. Liberals don’t get taken seriously because the conservative movement has spent decades and millions of dollars discrediting us. To change that, we have to recognize it first.
Bottom line: I am so very tired of being dismissed because of guys like you. Grow up, shape up, or be quite and stop making us all look bad.
Love. Peace. Metallica.
.
Yeah, I was gone for like two, three months. I believe the reason was “For being a raging asshole”. I have to admit, they had a serious point. I’m back, but I got to be on my best behavior, which means I have to make intelligent arguments rather than calling people who annoy me douchenozzels, or fuckbuckets.
Love. Peace. Metallica.
KnightHawk, with all due respect.
You mistake me for a Liberal.
I am not.
Nor am I a Conservative.
I detest both Liberals and Conservatives – for different reasons.
I don’t like bible thumpers, and I don’t like Socialists. Next?
That doesn’t leave a lot of room in today’s political climate, does it?
I believe in ABOVE ALL ELSE, freedom of the individual. Freedom from the looters of the Socialist left. Freedom from the Theocratic, Taliban-esque Right. Freedom to do what I damn well please, and shove it up the @$$ of anyone who tries to stop me. If I’m not hurting anyone, NO-ONE has ANY right to ANY say about me whatsoever. Person A’s right to swing their arms ends at person B’s nose. Live and let live. And all that stuff…
California is both the worst of states, and the best of states for these reasons – and why I won’t live in a redneck state, despite the rampant Socialism here (in Ca.).
To put it very shortly, I’m a Pro-Gun, Pro-Choice, Pro-freedom of (and FROM) religion, Pro personal spirituality, Pro military, pro nature, pro LEGAL immigration yet anti ILLEGAL immigration, anti Socialist, anti Dominionist/Theocrat/Taliban/Bible Thumper, anti-big government, anti-big business, anti-handouts, anti BANK, anti-drug, anti booze, anti tobacco, anti conformist (of any kind), blah, blah, blah person. I don’t fit in anywhere – Libertarian is the closest I guess, but even that isn’t a 100% fit. Political parties are a large part of the problem – ALL of them.
If someone won’t take a stand against all this Bullshit, who will?
You critique me for not being practical. I’m not trying to be practical. I *do* recognize the realities – very well. I just don’t accept them. I’m trying to make difference by standing up for what I believe in. As I take it from your post that you are black – if people didn’t criticize the then status quo back in the day, we wouldn’t have gotten anywhere.
Yes, there are certainly those with their so-called “moral” codes who will judge me, or you, or anyone. NOT my problem – and Goddess help anyone who tries to make THEIR “morals” into MY problem (which is exactly what both Liberals and Conservatives do). That’s why I try to promote ETHICS over “MORALS” – semantic arguments aside. Neither the Liberals nor the Conservatives have Ethics, just differing “Morals”, which I mostly reject except in the rare cases when same actually manage to intersect with ETHICS.
Rosa Parks I’m not, but I’m trying to do my part in my way. I don’t pretend to have the answers – at my age, I don’t even have all the questions!
BTW, I enjoy your posts! You come across as a very thoughtful, well balanced person. Good day to you!
Let’s say a customer walks into H&R Block and this guy is sitting at the front desk. Personally, I wouldn’t give a damn. If the guy can do his job, then that’s good enough for me. But you can’t honestly believe that this isn’t going to negatively impact the business. I am not debating whether the business owner is right or wrong. I am simply stating that as the owner of a privately owned business, it is within their rights to do what they feel is best for their business, just as it is within your rights not to support such a business.
Hold on a moment. You’re anti-government, but you want the government to force businesses to abandon any sort of dress code? Once again, you come across as a complete hypocrite.
Did I say anything about the government doing it. LEARN TO READ.
Apologies to the rest of the group, I rose to the bait again. Since this self righteous clown brings out the worst in me, I’m unsubscribing from
this thread for my own blood pressure.
And like I’m going to sit around balancing a 20 lb candelabra all day…
please dont let me stop you all from killing each other……………….
I think it is safe to say that it is going to take generations for people to become more acccepting of ink, I am not sure I even want them to, they are not like me in any way…………..now we could help by performing as well as or better than other employees………..I hold professional unrestricted HVAC licenses in 7 states which is pretty rare (I know of no other individual qualified in as many places) I also hold alot of other cool certifcations related to my industry………………..I wear a ton of ink which I no longer cover up, full sleeves, full leg coverage etc………..I am accepted by people in my industry who cannot stand ink because of my performance excellence.
People in this industry would hire me now, knowing my skill set and reputation that absolutely despise tattoo work. In this case I have caused them to set their morals aside and do what is best for their business.
I dont think above average performance hurts, but like it or not, people inject their personal beliefs into the hiring process (and just about everything else they do ), it is wrong and it is certain not to stop anytime soon…………
you all have fun………………
What is that? I’ve been in the trade almost 30 years and we have nothing like that. I wished we did. I have to have 5 licenses : EPA license(U.S.Gov), Electrical journeyman(WA state), Boiler Journeyman(City of Seattle), Gas fitters Journeyman(city of Seattle) And Refrigeration (city of Seattle) not to mention the bullshit NATE crap. I’ve never totaled it up But I would guess I have to do over 40 hours of cont. education a year. I would love for all that to be covered under an HVAC lic.
unrestricted means I can do commercial, no size limit,
states are georgia, alabama, south carolina, louisiana, mississippi, texas and tennessee,
in these states I can do refrigeration, gas lines and boilerplus any tonnage heating and air under unrestricted hvac license
my continueing ed is murder, renewal fees are murder,
I am EPA certified in Energy Star 3.0 (latest and greatest), also Earthcraft energy efficient construction, Ive taken courses in LEEDS, I am a certified duct and envelope tightness verifier, water and soil conservation officer (I can control the errosion and sediment control on a whole project) and on and on, ACCA (air conditioning contractors of america) professional member, NAFA certified filtration specialist and a dozen more I can remember till I pull out my cards…………..its kinda crazy
Been in the business since leaving the Marines in 86
Love. Peace. Metallica.
LMAO good to know and welcome back 😀
D3FiANC3, I’m done discussing this issue with you. Let’s just agree to disagree and move on. The fact of the matter is that you will increasingly lose both customers and qualified employees with your self righteous attitude.
The 1950s were a long time ago, my friend. Its a new world.
Nothing self-righteous in my comments at all; just the opposite in fact. Your comments, on the other hand, are overwhelming self-righteous.
First off, the issue at hand is not tattooed individuals, but rather exposing visible tattoos at work. Secondly, I have no issue with either within my own business and it’s foolish to assume otherwise, considering that I am tattooed myself. However, I recognize the right of other business owners to make a choice that differs from my own. Your exaggerated sense of self-importance and belief that your rights supersede everyone else’s are the only thing that is self-righteous here.
As for your “new world,” that’s mostly a fantasy. Hatred and intolerance are alive and well across the majority of this nation. It’s fantastic that California is far more accepting than the rest of the nation, but that’s nothing new. It has been that way for decades and there is no indication that middle America is going to catch up any time soon. Go ahead and wear your costume into any rural community in the midwest or south and you’ll see just how little this world has changed.
I considered that, but the defining line is that tattoos are a choice. I certainly don’t mean to give the impression that I believe denying someone a job on the basis of visible tattoos is right, but by the same token, I don’t believe that forcing a business owner to hire someone whose ink may deter customers is right either. Forced to choose between two less-than-ideal positions, I tend to side with the business owner because I recognize his/her right to choose what is best for his/her business, as much as I do the tattooed individual’s choice to get inked.
Of course, Zorba has taken this debate far beyond tattoos by condemning all employer dress codes and insisting that people should be able to come to work any way they please. Well, I would be thrilled if we lived in such a world where people would readily take financial or legal advice from a guy wearing a skull cap and harem pants, but this isn’t the reality and it never will be. Anyone and everyone is most certainly encouraged to take a stand on the issue if they believe that strongly in it, but another reality is that those individuals will likely remain unemployed or underemployed for a very long time if they choose to show up for work without any regard for the dress code.
FWIW, if you’d like to call me a “fuckbucket,” feel free. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. 😀
I agree with you here. As mrchen said:
when things were looking real good career wise, I got sleeved, knowing I was going to have to wear long sleeve shirts in 95 degree Atlanta heat.
the big question is what does your boss do when he finds out your covered…………..I made sure I hit some record setting dsales and margin numbers with my fortune 500(at the time) and then I let all the VP’s and department heads see me after hours covered……….at that point they usually dont care, they may not like it, but they have already made a judgement on you based upon your performance and work ethic without seeing any ink
Indeed. I believe that this is the right way to go about breaking stigmas and facilitating change.
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